Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to Missionize with the Missions Guys, a podcast of the Arkansas Baptist State Convention offering biblical and practical insight and strategies designed to equip and encourage missions leaders to carry on mission work. The goal is to fulfill the great commission from a church's local community to the ends of the earth. That is why we missionize. Now, here are your hosts, the Missions guys, Sam Roberts and Quint Richie.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: Welcome to Mission Eyes. We're glad that you have joined us today, Clint. We are recording here at the Evangelism Conference and grateful for incredible attendance that we have over the next couple of days.
Always enjoy having our guests from Evangelism conference coming as a guest of Mission Eyes. And Today we have Dr. Jeff Orge. Dr. Orge, back in March of last year, was elected to serve as a president and CEO of the Southern Baptist Convention Executive Committee.
Prior to that, he served 20 years as president, Gateway Seminary, formerly known as Golden Gate Seminary. He's also served as an executive director of Northwest Baptist Convention, as a pastor and a church planter. He has written eight books, including two that we're gonna refer to today is God Calling and Live like a missionary. Dr. Orich, we are so grateful that you are with us today.
[00:01:37] Speaker C: Thank you for inviting me. It's always fun to talk about missions.
[00:01:40] Speaker D: Well, before we do that, let's talk about real important things. Now, anybody that's ever heard you introduced at a conference or speaking anywhere know that one of your favorite hobbies is searching for the world's best barbecue restaurant.
[00:01:51] Speaker C: This is true.
[00:01:52] Speaker D: So listeners want to know who's at the top of the list these days.
[00:01:57] Speaker C: That reflects your misunderstanding of my hobby. My hobby is not finding the world's best barbecue restaurant, it's searching.
So there's never an answer to the best because it's the quest. I live for the quest.
[00:02:14] Speaker B: The quest.
[00:02:14] Speaker C: There's gotta be one more barbecue place out there to try. And so I've eaten a lot of good barbecue and a couple of places really bad barbecue, but I'm more interested in the quest. I want to find the next one. And the next one may be the best one until I find the next one after that. So right now I've moved to Nashville. And I have to tell you, there's some really good barbecue in Nashville, and I've eaten at four or five places already that are at the near at the top of the list.
[00:02:38] Speaker B: So we're going to pretty good times in just. In just a few days. So what's at the top of your.
[00:02:44] Speaker C: Oh, I can't tell. I'm not going to tell you because I don't want to be out there advertising for anybody. But you get the idea. It's the search. It's the Quest.
[00:02:50] Speaker B: Gotcha. Now, Dr. Orgs, you've held a variety of leadership positions leading up to serving as President CEO of our executive committee. You've also written extensively on leadership. Matter of fact, Clint and I are walking through your Painful side of Leadership book now.
What would you say to those who are listening to our podcast? Are those two to three key leadership principles that are applicable across the board for anyone that's listening?
[00:03:26] Speaker C: Well, the first thing I would say is that I teach a foundational lecture on leadership in which I talk about what are the distinctives of Christian leadership? And there are really three. First, our motive is love. We love God and we love people. That's out of the Great Commandment. Second, our attitude is humility. We follow the attitude of Jesus in Philippians chapter two. And third, our strategy is service. Jesus said, the greatest among you, meaning the one who has the most influence is the servant of all. And so I focus on those three words. Love, humility, service. That's at the core of what Christian leadership is about. And really, when you think about it, while secular leaders and Christian leaders do a lot of the same things, what makes us different is that secular leaders are not motivated by love, humility, and service, but we are. So I try to keep those three words in focus as the foundation of what I'm trying to be as a Christian leader. And then the other thing that's very important to me is what I call mission discipline.
And that is identifying the mission that we have meaning. First of all, the overarching mission of God. But second, the specific mission of our organization or our school or our church, and really staying riveted on that mission. I think this is one of the most common problems in organizational leadership today, and that's what I call mission drift. And that is where we find ourselves drifting into all kinds of things that really aren't our business, instead of staying narrowly focused on what we're assigned to do and. And giving our wholehearted devotion to that. So the two things I try to keep in view, first of all, are the foundation of what makes me distinctly a Christian leader, which is love, humility, and service. And then secondly, what keeps me on track as an organizational leader is mission discipline. Knowing what I'm supposed to be doing and trying with everything, I have to stay narrowly focused on that.
[00:05:21] Speaker B: Amen. Great.
[00:05:22] Speaker D: And to chase that point of the mission drift, I think that's one of the things that, from the outside looking in was amazing. The transition at Gateway, you relocated to seminary, but yet you guys stayed focused on the mission. And, you know, as we talk about navigating change in the local church, how did you do that? What were some keys that you would say really helped you guys in that process?
[00:05:46] Speaker C: Well, first of all, it's a process that involves building a culture that's really driven by a particular mission. The first thing to do is to clearly articulate your mission. And Gateway did that several years ago. Our mission is shaping leaders to expand God's kingdom around the world. That's what we do. And so you articulate that mission, and then you hire people who believe in that mission, not who have to be convinced of it, but who already are living it and who want to come to an organization that is committed to that. And then you make decisions, budgeting decisions, programming decisions, even location decisions, business based on that mission. And what happens in an organization is when you build up a track record of doing that, it takes on its own momentum. And frankly, one of the test points of whether an organization is really mission driven is when the president gets challenged in a meeting by someone who says, Mr. President, I hear you giving us a good idea, but is it really an idea that's at the core of our mission? And there were a few times, fortunately, not many, but a few times at Gateway when I had to say, you're right, I'm driving an agenda that isn't really our mission on that one. And I got to back off from that. And when people see you doing that, it motivates them to say, he really does believe in this mission, and I want to believe in it, too. And the mission is really bigger than his ego, and I want it to be bigger than mine. So those are some things. Clearly articulate your mission. Make decisions on hiring and budgeting and programming that are mission driven. Have the courage to admit, even as the leader, when you're getting off track and people call you on it, and then let a few years go by and you'll start having your team reflect back to you what they do at Gateway Seminary. And that is a saying that has spoken often there. The mission matters most. And that's what really we came to identify and live in. That's why we were able to move the seminary and relocate and rebrand and never lose our focus because we were really had a clearly articulated and a commitment to our mission.
[00:07:46] Speaker D: That's great. If we shift gears a little bit and talk about just Your book is God Calling Me. I know that's been a huge resource to especially younger, younger generation through the years working through the call. You unpack Ephesians 3:7 as a foundational scripture to understanding a missionary service scripture. I was made a servant of this Gospel by the gift of God's grace that was given to me by the working of his power. How does this verse impact our understanding of calling related to missionary service?
[00:08:17] Speaker C: It's an interesting verse because it says Paul's testifying that he was made a servant of the Gospel. You know, that's the only time in the New Testament that phrase is used. We tend to think in terms of serving people or serving organizations or even, as I said a moment ago, serving mission. But he described it as serving the gospel. So you have to ask yourself, well, what does the gospel need? In theology class, they teach you that the Gospel has its own power, power and can accomplish its own objectives. So what does it need from us? Well, it only needs the one thing, and that is it needs us to be the conduit by which it's shared or communicated to other people. And so I really think that the core of missionary service is really about getting the Gospel to more people. And as I say in my book, while missionary service may at some point require a geographic relocation, it's not defined by your geography. It's defined by the gospel. And by serving the gospel meaning, the core of my missionary responsibility is being a conduit, a communicator of the gospel. And I may do that where I'm currently located, or God may ask me to move to another location to do that. But the location isn't the defining moment or the defining issue. It's really the gospel which is the defining issue.
[00:09:34] Speaker B: Awesome. And just to segue into the other book, which is live like a missionary, of course, is God calling me. You speak of those three distinct aspects of the calling of God. That universal call to all believers that we are on mission, that each of us are missionaries. Then that general call to some into a specific ministry assignment, and then that, well, that unique assignment is the third. So speaking to a pastor or other listeners that just may be members of the local church, how do you live like a missionary as a member of the local Baptist church?
[00:10:27] Speaker C: Well, I think you do that first of all by understanding the previous question, and that is that being a missionary means being a servant of the gospel. It means being a conduit for the gospel and getting the gospel to more people.
And as a local church member, you have the opportunity and the responsibility to do that primarily in the community where you live. Now, you may occasionally also, through partnership agreements and other efforts, go other places, but primarily you're going to do it where you live. And so I would simply challenge every listener to ask this question.
Who am I responsible and what opportunities do I have to get the gospel to more people? And that is the essence of living like a missionary. And that is getting the gospel to more people and being a conduit or a communicator of the gospel to people and not worrying so much about the geography. Let me just give you this illustration. I have people say to me, well, you know, I'm going on a mission trip to India. I said, well, that's great. Why are you doing that? Well, our church has a partnership and our state convention is working with us, and we're all going to India. And I'm like, that's great.
Have you ever eaten at an Indian restaurant in your own town where you live? Oh, no, I don't really like that kind of food. Well, then why would you go to India?
I mean, you have Indian people living in your own community, and you have the opportunity to go to their business, make friends with them, develop a relationship, and you won't do that, but you'll go halfway around the world.
What I'm saying is the gospel, share it. And yes, you can go on a mission trip to India. I'm not opposed to that, but I'm just challenging you that you have the opportunity to do some of the same kind of work right in your own community. Why not do that as well? Be a conduit of the gospel, a communicator of the gospel in that context.
[00:12:14] Speaker D: And I think that's where you say in your book, when you were saved, you were commissioned to missionary living. And I mean, that is just coming through in everything that you're saying. It begins where you are. But in speaking of that specific calling or calling to a specific missional assignment, how can a pastor help someone clarify what is that specific missional calling upon their life?
[00:12:39] Speaker C: Well, there is no doubt that while I say that we can all live like a missionary, we are not all called to what we traditionally or stereotypically call a missionary commitment or a missionary career or missionary life. That's a unique responsibility.
I do believe there are some people who have a clear calling from God to go to a different culture, a different context, learn a different language, and be the means by which the gospel in some cases is heard for the first time in that context. So how do you sort that out. Well, first of all, going back to my book, is God calling me. You want to see if the person that you're talking with has a deep inner conviction that God is calling them to do this. Second, do they demonstrate any capacity for this kind of work, this kind of affinity, if you will? I know that when I told my deacons some years ago that I was leaving a pastorate here in the Midwest and moving to plant a church in Portland, Oregon, I was expecting them to either be upset or to be shocked or something. But they just all sat there smiling. And one of them said, we've been waiting for this. It seems like all you talk about is missions and church planting and needs in other parts of the country. So we see this.
So if a person is a pastor, you're talking with someone and they have a, a deep inner sense that God is calling them. Their life seems to have a bent toward the kind of work that missionaries do and the kind of lives that missionaries live. And then a third thing is, do they have some success in this area? I mean, they've been on short term mission trips and they thrived. They found it to be a spiritually invigorating experience. They were very successful in that. I'll give you just one example. I was at the seminary, went to India with a small group of students, and when we arrived there, there was one student who was doing street preaching. And I was astounded, astounded at the response. In fact, it was so many people coming to hear him that the locals said, this is going to get us all in trouble. We're not. We can't have this kind of crowd. We have to find ways to get smaller groups to hear this man speak. Now, I've known this student, he's just a regular guy, but for some reason, when he got there, God just energized him and made him effective in ways that were amazing. Well, it's pretty easy for me to see that when he came back to the States and said, you know, I think God is calling me to missions. I'm like, yeah, I guess so, because we saw the effectiveness that he had. So when you're counseling with someone, you want to look for that inner sense of inner peace or conviction, a sense of confirmation, by the way. They're a sense of the affinity or the direction of their life and what they're really good at and what brings them pleasure. And then third, what they've been successful in doing. And when they have ventured out in these attempts to really investigate this calling has it been something that is really confirmed in them? Those are some basic things I look for now.
[00:15:33] Speaker B: One of the quotes that I've used multiple times in sermons is this. I just love this. Thank you so much for it. The question to clarify your missional call is not, am I called?
The better question is, whom am I called to reach?
[00:15:51] Speaker C: In that same passage in Ephesians that you referenced earlier, Paul goes on to say that he was called to reach the Gentiles. And so when I preach this, I often ask the question, who are your Gentiles? Who are the people you're uniquely qualified to reach and really uniquely gifted for and really uniquely passionate about?
And most people have some niche of people that they're really concerned about. For my wife, it's been children, preschool children, and their parents. And so we have always networked into communities where we were able to network into organizations and schools and daycare centers and others. And my wife has a great affinity for preschool children and their parents and has been remarkably gifted at reaching them. With the gospel, it doesn't have to be a people group like, you know, I'm here to reach Laotians or Vietnamese. It can be a subgroup like even preschool parents and their children. So you have to ask, who am I going to go after with the gospel? Who am I particularly burdened for, particularly skilled at reaching? Who can I reach out and really touch in the name of Jesus?
[00:16:55] Speaker B: So, yes, or as you share in your own personal life, baseball players and a baseball team.
[00:17:02] Speaker C: I've had a tremendous affinity for baseball community almost my whole life. And for the past 20 plus years, I have worked in the baseball community. I worked for 10 years as the chaplain for the San Francisco Giants, and then during some of that time, overlapping, and now for the many years since, I've been on the teaching and ministry team of an organization called Calling for Christ. And it's an organization that focuses on outreach to professional baseball umpires and now other officials in other sports. And so, yes, I have had this unique connection with and effectiveness among sports officials. And that's a niche of people that we got to reach with the gospel. And we are reaching.
[00:17:48] Speaker B: So amen. Awesome. Awesome. And just for our listeners, we have a podcast, an earlier podcast. Clint, you want to refer them back to the one with Brandon Moore on sports teams?
[00:18:02] Speaker D: Yeah, it was early on when we just talked about travel, sports and, and, you know, the battle that churches face with that and how you can use that in ministry. So I would encourage you to go back, do a little digging for that. But it was early on, matter of fact, it was. I believe our number one listened to podcast.
[00:18:19] Speaker B: I think it was.
[00:18:20] Speaker C: I think it was.
[00:18:20] Speaker D: I think four people listened to that one.
[00:18:25] Speaker B: Dr. Orange, one thing that we have noticed here, there appears to be this decrease in the numbers of individuals from the local church that are responding to a specific ministry assignment, a calling. As we traditionally would understand that whether it's to a pastor or working within the local church, I don't know. I think in speaking with others and other state conventions, they're also seeing.
Seeing the ascent in our day. How would you respond to that?
Is there something that you would say, hey, this may be a contributing factor to that.
[00:19:10] Speaker C: Today there are several.
First, I would challenge pastors to preach about and to occasionally, not every Sunday, but to occasionally include responding to God's call as part of their public call for response in worship. When I was a teenager, I was in a community that had a Baptist college and a military base. Lots of young adults came to and through our church.
Our pastor had a very strong conviction about God's call and about his responsibility to call out the called.
As a result, God sent us a lot of young adults, and surprisingly, a lot of them responded to God's call out of that church. And so the first step is extend the call, preach about it, and ask people to commit to it. Second, we have to find ways to give people opportunities to test those callings.
And this is getting harder and harder. When I started out in ministry, churches had Sunday night services, Wednesday night services, nursing home services, jail ministry services, all kinds of things that we were doing. And that's where young ministry leaders like me sort of cut their teeth, if you will, and got the field test. Is this real or not? Am I supposed to really do this or not? I remember early on when I said I was called to be a pastor, that my pastor said, I want you to start going once a month to a nursing home that our church is responsible for and leading the service and preaching. And I did that about two or three times. And I came back and I said, pastor, I don't think they're getting much out of this. These people that are in this home, they're A lot of them I'm not even sure are aware of what we're doing, but we bring them all into a room and I preach, and I'm not sure they're getting much out of it. And he said, well, they're probably not. I said, well, why am I going? He said, because you need to learn how to preach, Jeff. And you need to take every opportunity and you need to stop thinking about how big of a deal the opportunity is and just be faithful where you're assigned. Well, that was a humbling moment, but I kept going because I realized I need to learn how to do this and so extend the call and give opportunities to field test, if you will. Third, we need to present positive models of ministry leadership to people. I mean, sometimes I go to conferences or events or things and I hear people just talking about how negative it is in ministry. And it's not all negative. Sure, it's like everything. You've got some bad days, but mostly it's great days of service and opportunity and getting to work with the best people in the world, which are Christians. And so that's a third thing, is how we present the ministry and the calling and what it can look like. So these are some simple things, but I would add one more thing, and that is, you know, we have a demographic trend right now in our country where there are fewer 18 year olds than there have been in like two decades. And the birth rate and the birth cycle has been such that, you know, this is a challenge. And so it doesn't mean that God isn't calling. It means that there just frankly are fewer people that are of that age, which means we need to double down and make sure that we're doing everything we can to call out every single person that is being called by God and give them every opportunity to test that and to find a way to move forward, because we need every one of them in ministry leadership.
[00:22:21] Speaker B: Great word.
[00:22:22] Speaker D: That's great.
I know about a year ago you had announced your intentions to step down as seminary president and kind of retire. And God redirected your steps. And we are grateful for your leadership around this table. If you cut any of us, we all three would bleed. Southern Baptist. Yes, because the investment of Southern Baptist in our life, number one in the call God has placed upon us to serve Southern Baptist. But we also acknowledge these are challenging times for the convention. What excites you most about your current position as president and CEO of the executive committee?
[00:22:57] Speaker C: Grassroots Southern Baptist, the greatest people in the world.
[00:22:59] Speaker B: Amen.
[00:23:00] Speaker C: I can't describe to you how thrilling it really is for me to go out to a conference like the one today and to interact with hundreds of pastors and ministry leaders and lay people from churches. Grassroots Southern Baptists are the greatest people in the world and it is a pleasure to serve them. They are very supportive of our work. They believe in what we're doing.
The level of support is really some days overwhelming. You say, well, yeah, but what about the negative? Look, the negative comes from a very small percentage of people who are very loud on social media. But the vast majority of Southern Baptists are the greatest people in the world and that excites me every day to get to serve them. And then the second thing is just the incredible impact Southern Baptists are making. I mean, when you look at the mission boards, the schools and beyond, just the seminaries, but the colleges that we have and all the other ministries, hospitals, children's homes, retirement centers, all of the feeding ministries, clothing ministries, disaster relief, you look at all that is being done in the name of Southern Baptist. It is absolutely amazing what God is doing through us all around the world. So there is a lot to be excited about and frankly it is a pleasure and an honor to get to give back to Southern Baptist for what they have put into my life over the last 50 years.
[00:24:25] Speaker B: Awesome. Dr. Orch, we want to thank you for your investment in Arkansas Baptist by coming to Econ and we look forward to hearing you also by being our guest here on Mission Eyes.
We give our guests the final word and would just like for you to address our listeners and give a word of encouragement. What would you say to to pastors who are here for the Evangelism conference as well as others who will be listening to this podcast?
[00:24:56] Speaker C: Share the Gospel. Share the gospel. Tell the gospel to people. Live the gospel among people. Share the gospel. The gospel has not gone out of fashion. It has not lost its power. It is not an outdated message. It is what people are desperate to hear all around the world. Share the gospel. And when churches are doing that, they are thriving and they are growing at different rates and in different paces in different places. I get all that. But where the gospel is centric, there's spiritual health, there's vitality, and there's a future.
[00:25:29] Speaker D: So thanks for listening today. Appreciate you joining us. Hey, there is still time. It's the 1st of March, early March and so it's still time for you to join us for the spring outreach strategy. Kicking off with 316 on 316, encouraging pastors to preach on John 3:16 on March 16 and then also the components of Serve Local, the big day, which is Easter Sunday and our Statewide Baptism Day, April 27th. So be sure you check that out. Absc.org SOS.
[00:26:03] Speaker A: Thanks for joining the missions guys today. If you liked what you heard, rate and review us on your favorite podcasting platform. And to keep up with what is happening in Arkansas missions, visit absc.org missions.
