Missions Math with Rusty Gunn

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to Missionize with the Missions Guys, a podcast of the Arkansas Baptist State Convention offering biblical and practical insight and strategies designed to equip and encourage missions leaders to carry on mission work. The goal is to fulfill the great Commission from a church's local community to the ends of the earth. That is why we missionize. Now, here are your hosts, the Missions Guys, Sam Roberts and Quint Richie. [00:00:31] Speaker B: Welcome to Mission Eyes. I'm Sam Roberts and sitting right over there is our co host, Clint Richie. [00:00:37] Speaker C: Hey. [00:00:38] Speaker B: On this episode we're gonna go back to school and have a lesson in Mission Eyes math. Our instructor today is Rusty Gunn. Yes, you heard correctly, his name is Rusty Gunn. And Rusty serves as the director of Sidnetwork Oklahoma. Rusty, welcome to Mission Eyes. [00:01:02] Speaker C: Thank you, man. Glad to be here with you guys. [00:01:04] Speaker B: Hey, we want you to take a few minutes and introduce yourself to our listeners. What do they need to know about Rusty Gunn? [00:01:12] Speaker C: Well, I don't know they need to know anything about me necessarily, but for interest sake, Rusty Gunn is my real name. My dad was Tommy Gunn. I think they thought I was gonna be a misfire. And I don't know how I got Rusty. But we decided, my wife and I, my wife Megan is from Missouri. We met there when I was in ministry in Missouri and she and I, when we got married decided we would give our kids better names. And so just for fun sake, you can know our kids names are Gatlin 12 gauge BB and Colt 45. That's a true story. So if you don't get anything else out of the podcast now, at least you heard about a guy and it's fun. We've had a lot of fun with that. But I do, I pastor a church in Sand Springs, Oklahoma, right outside of Tulsa that we planted in 2010. So coming up on 15 years and actually at the 15 year mark, we are in a pastoral succession plan right now that I'll hand over the reins of the lead pastor role there at 15 years. And so we're excited about that and anxious about that as well and walking in that process. And so in that journey of church planting and the work that we've been able to do, see, God bless. I got to become onto this role as a SIN Network director for Oklahoma. Oklahoma, I believe was the second state partnership with North American Mission Board to do send network. And so our arrangement now is very similar to what Arkansas has and it's a partnership between the state Convention and the North American Mission Board. And I've just been really honored and blessed to be able to work in that role in church planting in Oklahoma. [00:02:45] Speaker B: Now, you said that you were walking through a succession plan right now. [00:02:50] Speaker C: Yes, sir. [00:02:52] Speaker B: Is church planting still in the future for you? [00:02:55] Speaker C: Oh, sure. So I'm working full time ultimately with North American Mission Board as a center work director. And so I'll remain in that role. Continue doing that. I will step aside as lead pastor and become an elder in our church. [00:03:06] Speaker B: Okay. [00:03:06] Speaker C: Plan is for me to remain there, be a missionary of our church, being working with the North American Mission Board, and, you know, just serve there, my local church. [00:03:15] Speaker B: Okay, great, great. Now, at the time that we're recording this episode, Rusty has just assisted our Arkansas SIN Network team in teaching two sending labs. Now, we had one of these labs last year, had a couple on the schedule, had to cancel one of those, but had one in northwest Arkansas last year that Rusty helped us out with. And we just finished two this year. Back to back that Rusty's been here with us. One was in northeast Arkansas in Jonesboro, followed by the lab yesterday in Little Rock. Pretty good attendance as far as I could tell. For first time, we felt two back to back. And being the week of Easter, very busy time in the life of pastors. Rusty, take a moment and tell us about the purpose of. Of the sending lab and your impression of these last two days. [00:04:15] Speaker C: Well, I mean, the attendance was fantastic. Not just the attendance, but the participation, the engagement. The guys that came came hungry and ready and really willing to have open hands and open hearts. And, you know, the idea of the sending lab is we want to help churches to recognize where they are in terms of the mobilization pathway that's been developed through the North American Mission Board in terms of church planting. So there's this idea of their, you know, 22,000 of our Southern Baptist churches on the rolls are unengaged, meaning they're not even giving to the cooperative program or our primary mission offerings. [00:04:48] Speaker B: And we call those supporting churches. [00:04:52] Speaker C: So then the next level will be a cooperating church. Those who are doing those things are giving to the cooperative program, to those mission offerings. And then, you know, maybe even praying for church planters just participating in some way. And then a supporting church is kind of a next level to say that they have personally engaged with a church plant in some way. So maybe they're sending a mission team once a year. Maybe they're providing some resource of some sort. They're praying on a regular basis for one particular planter. They're a supporting church of that planter. And then the sending church is that next kind of Step if somebody wanted to further engage, and it's the opportunity to take responsibility for a church plant to say, we're going to send this out, be the primary role of a sender in that. So we want to equip churches to know what it looks like to send, what it means to send, and they can walk away from that event in the sending lab with a plan. And really, ultimately, Sam, it's a discipleship plan is really what it is. It's a discipleship pathway that just has the destination of a church planter and a church planting team member. We just help equip and expose them to the resources available to. To help them in that journey. [00:06:00] Speaker B: Yeah, Clint, I attended the workshop yesterday, and great, great time with the guys who were there. Rusty led that workshop off with an important lesson on multiplication. That's why we're talking about let's talk multiplication. I wish that we had recorded what he had to say. It really was that good. Rusty. You did a masterful job, my friend, of giving that biblical foundation for multiplication weaving that throughout scripture. Even mentioned to Rusty earlier that if we had recorded that session, he could already be on his way back to Oklahoma, because we would have just taken it, spliced an intro, a conclusion to it, and called it a day. But I asked Rusty to join us today and share this missionized math lesson with our listeners. This morning, Rusty, Clint and I are going to join our listeners as your students. [00:07:02] Speaker C: Okay, man. Well, I'm not much of a professor, but I'll do my best. [00:07:05] Speaker B: Professor, it's all yours. Let's talk multiplication. [00:07:07] Speaker C: Grateful for the opportunity. And I think about multiplication. You're talking about school subjects. And I just remember elementary school. I think it was probably second or third grade. And, you know, addition, subtraction, those were kind of no big deal for me. One plus one equals one. Two. No. See, I can't even get the math. [00:07:24] Speaker B: And in a culture where that was clinch math. Yes. [00:07:28] Speaker C: See, I can't even get that right. And so, you know, in our culture, sometimes one plus one equals purple. And so we gotta get that part down. But once we kind of understood that, Ms. Barnes took us to the next level and she started using these things, word problems, you know, and if Johnny has five apple trees and each tree multiplies three times each year, and each one has five apples here and five apples there, you know, what does Johnny have in five years? And I'm like, well, too many apples, I don't know. And probably a stomach ache because he probably had a lot of apple Pie and apple sauce and whatever else. And so just thinking about that, you know, God's kingdom, multiplication isn't just about numbers, it's about impact. And God isn't in the business when we read the scripture and look of small slow additions, typically he's in the business of exponential growth. He takes a little and he turns it into a lot. I mean, you think about a few loaves and fish and he creates a feast. He takes 12 disciples and he starts a global movement that we're all continuing to be the product of. And so when it comes to that idea, idea of multiplication, of worshipers of Jesus, bearers of his image, disciples and churches around the world, we kind of have to face this question, is that a man made idea or is that a God made plan? And I'll just spend some time walking biblically, theologically through. And I'm indebted to guys like Todd Aarons, who I kind of heard this from many years ago, and Matt Carter, who's kind of unpacked this at our sin network orientations with our planters as well, and Dave Ferguson with exponent, Nathan Schenck with imb. These guys who bleed out this idea of multiplication. And where we see it throughout scripture and we see that it's not just any plan, this is really God's primary plan to take the message of the Gospel to the nations and to our neighbors is multiplication of disciples and churches. And that it was born in the heart of God and has been breathed out from the beginning of Scripture to the end of Scripture and been lived out by his church really since the day of Pentecost. And so think about where we see the first introduction to the idea of multiplication. It's in Genesis chapter one. It's right there when he says that God created man in his own image, the image of God. He created them male and female. He blessed them and said to them, be fruitful and multiply, Multiply and fill the earth and subdue it. And so it's the very first chapter of the very first book of the Bible. He just creates man and woman as in him, as the very first thing he tells them to do is go and multiply, fill the earth with bearers of my image. And so I don't know if you ever thought about that, that the very first commandment given to mankind was this idea of multiplication. So we see that before the fall of man, we see that after the flood with Noah, you know, Adam and Eve have sinned, things got bad, God's looking down at the earth and saw that the intentions and the thoughts of man were evil all the time. And he decides, hey, I brought you into this world. I'm just going to take you out. And so he tells Noah to build an ark, bring his family onto the ark. The flood comes. The rains eventually subside, and Noah's family walks out of the ark. And the very first thing that happens, Genesis chapter 8. God says, Go out of the ark, you and your wife and your sons and their wives with you. Bring with you every living thing of all flesh that is with you. Birds and animals, creeping things that creep on the earth, and that they may breed abundantly on the earth. And then he says to them, he turns the attention back to the them and says, and you be fruitful and multiply on the earth. And so again, the first thing in the garden, multiply and fill the earth with bearers of my image. First thing after the flood, multiply and fill the earth with bearers of my image. [00:11:07] Speaker B: So the fall did not change. God's plan didn't change, remains the same. [00:11:12] Speaker C: Still the plan. [00:11:13] Speaker B: That's awesome. [00:11:14] Speaker C: Still the plan. And so time goes on, and God is putting all the things in motion in his grand scheme of redemption. And he comes to the guy that we know as Father Abraham, who had many sons, and many sons had Father Abraham, you know, And I am one of them, and so are you. So we praise the Lord because he said, abraham, look at the stars. You see all those stars? You can't count them, can you? And watch what he says in Genesis 22, verses 17 and 18. He says, I will surely bless you. I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of the heaven and the sands on the seashore. And we know that that is not just speaking of his physical lineage. He's talking a spiritual idea here, this spiritual principle that we would understand that God is calling his shot right here, telling what's going to happen. He's talking about the Messiah who would come from the lineage of Abraham, but that through that Messiah, all tribes, all tongues, all nations would be blessed. And so there's something in that, when God is talking to Abraham that we want to pay close attention to. Because Abraham, you know, when he's talking to God, God says, I will bless you and I will multiply your offspring. And that's important because every time up to now, God had given instruction for you. You know, it was Adam, you and Noah, you go and multiply. But God is saying here that this is. He's going to do it. And he uses the term or the Idea of surely twice in that whole thing. He says, surely I will bless you, and surely I will multiply your offspring. So God is going to bless. He's going to multiply and don't call him surely. Right? If you get that reference, then you're officially old and I love you and I get it too. So he says that. And I don't know about you, when you hear God say that he is sure about something, come on, man, you. [00:13:08] Speaker B: Can bet it all, yes, sir. Yes, sir. [00:13:10] Speaker C: That it's surely going to happen. It's sure and secure. And so God is all in. That's the idea on this idea of multiplication. He's all in on it. It's his idea, and he is doing the work. And it's a foregone conclusion that it's going to happen. And so we keep going with the idea of multiplication again before the fall, after the flood. And you think about prophecy and how many times the ends of the earth and the nations and all of this would take place in prophecy. One example of that is the Psalm as he's looking and he's seeing the finished work of multiplication. In Psalm 22, verse 27 says, all the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nation shall worship before you. And so as we're doing our part in multiplication, we remind ourselves that as the prophets looked forward and they're writing down everything they're seeing and they weren't highlighting, man, this is going to be really hard. Man, this is going to be really difficult, and people are going to be selfish and people are going to be focused on themselves. This may not work. They didn't write those things. They looked. And what they saw is they were looking at the end of all of this. They saw all the earths are going to turn to the Lord and the nations of the earth, and the nations will worship before him. And so we get focused in the weeds sometimes and we get caught up. But we see God is doing this work and he's going to see it through to fulfillment. So again, Old Testament, we see that happening there. But of course, the New Testament. Then we get to the New Testament, man, as Jesus. This holy week that we have been in right now, just reflecting on and thinking about and celebrating the idea that Jesus came, that he died on the cross for our sin, that he rose from the grave. And then we know after that he ascended into heaven. And the Holy Spirit came at the day of Pentecost. And Acts 5:14 tells us that more than Ever believers were added to the Lord. And then that's word multitudes, multitudes of both men and women. Acts chapter 6, verse 7 goes and says, the word of the Lord continued to increase. The numbers of disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great number of priests became obedient to the faith. Acts 9:31. So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria had peace and was being built up, walking in the fear of the Lord and the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it multiplied. And so when we walk in the fear of the Lord, and when we walk in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, the result is that the Holy Spirit, the fear of the Lord that times that equals multiplication, right? It's a multiple multiplying thing. And so you see this pattern happening here before the fall, after the flood, through the age of the church, and then finally through the Holy Spirit inspired word of God, we see multiplication happening at the beginning and all through each eternity. At Revelation 7, that vision, verses 9 through 12 that John says, after this I looked and behold a great multitude that no one could number. Every from every nation, all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes and palm branches in their hands and crying with a loud voice, salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne and to the Lamb. And what I guys, what an incredible picture. [00:16:25] Speaker B: Yes, sir. [00:16:26] Speaker C: To just visualize that. And if we think back and remember God's promise to Abraham, I will surely bless you, I will surely multiply your offspring. I like to think about, why did God use those word pictures? And you know, people tried to count the stars for ages. You know, you can even buy one and name it now, you know, because there's so many out there, we don't even know, we can't even do it all. And you know, so you think about that and then they think about sand. You ever been to the beach and then tried to get the sand out of your car or try to get it off of your body, like that stuff just multiplies and it goes to every crack and crevice. It goes to the darkest places. And so that's what God says this multiplication is going to look like, but even more, even more. And so amazing. It's amazing that when John saw the end, he saw that vision of this multitude that no one could number. Every tribe, every tongue, every nation standing before the throne. And here's the idea, you can't get to that multitude without multiplication. And so what we know, Henry Blackaby would say in experiencing God, find where God is at work and what join him there. And so when we are working in this work of multiplication, we are working where God is already working and has been since day one, and he's until the end of days. And then the fruit of that is beyond those days. And so when we're working for multiplication or toward multiplication, we are. It's not in vain. We're joining with God. Because when God said it will surely happen, it will surely happen, and we can be on the winning team. You think about back to prophecy. Habakkuk, chapter 2, verse 14. The earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, like the waters cover the sea. And so again, this is God's multiplication plan doesn't end with a trickle, but with a tidal wave of glory. And so just a couple, couple thoughts from that. Just things that have been, you know, kind of drawn out of that one is that the multiplication of disciples and churches is God's primary plan to take the message of the gospel to the nations. And I like to add, and to our neighbors. And the more I study scripture, the more I'm convinced that we have to stop looking at multiplication as a strategy that we may or may not do, but we look at it as a calling that we have to obey. And so, you know, the question is not whether or not you'll participate in the plan, or the question is really, will you participate in the plan or will you be part of the problem and devote yourself to some lesser vision? The second thing is this, that we talked about this a bit earlier before the podcast. Sam, just that multiplication, it requires intentionality. You don't stumble onto it. You have to sacrifice for it. You have to systematize around it. You have to shift your scorecard for it. We all gravitate toward keeping and holding rather than releasing and sending. I don't know, you guys. I grew up in church, around church, my dad was in ministry, and, man, we were all about the church growth movement back in the mid and early 80s and through the 90s and even into the 2000s. This church growth, everything was church growth, books and conferences and everything leaned toward, how do you grow your church? And really, man, the reality is that we have more mega churches today than we've ever had in North America in the United States, and yet less people engaged in local churches than we've ever had. And there's a decline. And so it didn't quite bring about the results that we hoped to see this. So we got a lot of mega churches and we got A lot of mini commitments, you know, and so we got to, you know, what we did is we built platforms instead of pipelines, and we need to fix the funnel. This morning, as I was praying through this and thinking about this, man, this came to my mind, and I haven't processed it yet. So this is raw. But that the kingdom of God works more like a funnel than a ladder. And so just thinking that through and processing that, like, we got to fix the funnel. There are megachurches that are doing fantastic gospel work. So this is not a either or. Really, it's both. And. But ultimately, the goal and the vision has to be the kingdom. Vance Pittman says that the church is a tool, the kingdom is the goal. And what we've often done is made the tool the goal. And so the church becomes the end of the funnel for us. And we want to let that just be the place that only is advancing and growing. Just thinking about that, man, we got to be intentional about multiplication, and that means how we define our success. [00:21:31] Speaker B: So how does that change the scorecard when it comes to church planting? In terms of how church planting is viewed now, maybe in relation to how church planting used to be viewed, what's the end goal on church planting? [00:21:54] Speaker C: I think what changes a little bit of even. We flipped the script here at SIN Network just how we engage church planting ideology and kind of the missiology of it that we used to plant. Worship services. We just started worship services. So you run a storefront, or you get a school, or you get a building given to you, or whatever happens. And really everybody, all the energy and all the time and all the conversation leads toward, when are we going to have Sunday morning? I call it the Sunday suck. So it's like, it sucks all of your energy, all your resources. And so the script really flipped back to what we see in biblical missiology, Acts chapter 13 and 14 of people going and engaging a city with the gospel first, and then making disciples and then planting a church. So the scorecard changes because we're not just about how many people are we gathering? And that's where I think churches need to wrestle. The question is, do I need to add another worship service? Do I really need to add more square footage? [00:22:54] Speaker B: You're not going there, are you, to. [00:22:55] Speaker C: Seat more people under the, you know, the impact of my ministry right here in this room? Or should I maybe build better systems to build better people to send out to multiply the impact of ministry all over? And so again, not against building a bigger building necessarily, not against starting another worship Time, necessarily. But I think you really ought to wrestle that question down. And it's something that I did. Our church had grown to about 500 people, a little over 500. We kind of peaked over that. And I walked in our room one day and we're talking about expanding our auditorium. And we've had three worship times and all these things. And I'm just going to, man, what am I doing? I'm wearing people out. First of all, our team, our staff. I'm worn out. We're all worn out. Add more and do more. And what if. What if we began to really invest in people and we began to send them out? And so, I mean, I blew our church up. I grew it from 500 to about 350 by sending people out and by some not loving that vision and. And finding other places to go and bless them for it. But, you know, just thinking about that, that we've kind of seen that happen over time with this idea of multiplication. And so, you know, again, you got to be intentional about it. [00:24:16] Speaker B: And in the church where you pastor. [00:24:19] Speaker C: Now. [00:24:21] Speaker B: That wasn't just one time. Right? [00:24:24] Speaker C: Right. [00:24:24] Speaker B: How many churches? Yeah. [00:24:26] Speaker C: So we've had multiplication vision in our heart since day one. I mean, we've been able to. In 14 and a half years now, we've been able to be the sending agent at church for 12 church plants. That's domestically. And then internationally, we've had some work, too, and done some church planting things there, and so. And that would be like your prevailing model churches. We also have done some house church work, and so we've seen a lot of that happen as well. And so a lot of multiplication that's taken place just. We kind of hit the. The gas, shifted gears a few years ago to do it more aggressively and, and more intentionally even than before. And so. But we've seen that kind of multiplication take place. [00:25:05] Speaker D: You know, you mentioned changing on the scorecard. So I'm sitting here thinking of math the whole time, so my head's hurting a little bit. But, you know, addition, we talk about church growth and you know that it's a very important place and role that it plays. But, you know, you can add and you can see growth or you can multiply and see rapid growth, you know, and so that's what I'm sitting here thinking the whole time. You know, as a kid, we had rabbits. I don't know how we ever ended up with these two rabbits, but got them from our pastor, and he told us that they were too young to breed. And that's the first time a new pastor's lied. I could have went and bought a third rabbit until the, you know, and added two and a fourth. And then I went outside one day and we had a bunch of rabbits from those two. The multiplied, you know. And so I think as we're thinking here and this idea of math, yeah, you know, we've got churches and guys that are listening that there's growth that's happened one at a time, two at a time. But this idea of multiplying and you mentioned, you know, it isn't about the number, but it's the impact, you know, and talking about, you know, the Lord taking just a few fish and loaves and how he fed thousands with that. And so I think that's really one thing that stood out to me as we're talking is that, yeah, we see guys that are doing a great work, God's blessing, and there's been growth, but it's that intentionality that could lead to a rapid impact in the kingdom. [00:26:38] Speaker C: Yeah. And that intentionality, again, on the scorecard side, but also kind of the next thing is, is that it requires some collaboration. And so you want to be intentional about not being a lone ranger out there. You go to the New Testament and try to find one place where mission was done alone by one church and you don't find it. There's this collaboration environment happening. I love what we're doing here, you know, with Arkansas and Oklahoma just being next door, man. And then the work we're doing. There's a college guy who's sensing a call to plant a church on a college campus somewhere. His church wants to send him out from Jonesboro to go to a college college campus to engage the lost community there and plant a church. He's looked at some universities in Oklahoma, so his church, my church, SIN Network Oklahoma, other churches that are being a part of that. We're saying, hey, this is kingdom work. Let's collaborate together to see it happen. Getting to come over and help with Tim Wicker, man, who's doing a fantastic job as the SIN Network director of Arkansas, getting his team and getting to work with these guys. This collaboration is going to. To lead to that multiplication. It's a part of the intentionality is to open up our hands and hearts to work alongside of others. And so it works that way. [00:27:45] Speaker B: That's great, Rusty. Clint, you see why I wanted to have Rusty here and why I wish we had taped the session yesterday. But what we got today was probably even better than yesterday. So thank you, Rusty, for being with us. [00:28:03] Speaker C: Thank you guys. [00:28:03] Speaker B: Man, we sure look forward to, to the opportunities we have over the coming years of partnering together as SIN Network Oklahoma, Send Network Arkansas and also with SIN Network Missouri. We do our assessments together here. So we get to meet these guys a couple of times a year, meet some of their church planters, they get to invest in our church planters. It's a great partnership. I am so thankful that Arkansas Baptist have, have developed and continue to develop this partnership between our Arkansas Baptist State Convention, the North American Mission Board that we call SIN Network. Amazing, incredible stuff. And we're going to see some great things happen in, in the area of church planting and multiplication over the years. [00:28:58] Speaker C: Yes, sir. [00:28:58] Speaker B: Thank you for the lesson today, Rusty. [00:29:00] Speaker C: Thank you guys. [00:29:01] Speaker D: And I will say we, we started this podcast and said we want it to be biblical. I think this is the most biblical we've had today. So thank you, Rusty, for leading us in that. And next trip I want you to come back because I want to talk about a secession plan and I wish we had time to jump into that when you mentioned. I'll jot it down because not just, you know, as we see a lot of pastors in our state getting to, you know, looking at retirement and exploring, but how that could be done, but also just how you've established a DNA in the church that's going to continue, you know, through this, that secession plan. So that's a next episode coming up at some point. But thank you guys for listening. Rusty, thank you again for being here for your work and I look forward to future partnerships together and look forward for you joining us back here in two weeks. [00:29:56] Speaker A: Thanks for joining the missions guys today. If you liked what you heard, rate and review us on your favorite podcasting platform. And to keep up with what is happening in Arkansas missions, visit absc.org missions.